(Tia starts in on a dissertation on growth and how not being stagnant on the goals for growth leads to learning karmic lessons to where they don’t have to be repeated. That conversation leads to Atlantis due to the thought we are progressing to a level once achieved. Tia makes a correction to that thought saying what we have now is what is needed. Now we learn to make due without the advantages mental skills that many were quite proficient in back then.) 

---

Karra: okay, do we have anything to discuss more?

Russ: cloning.

Karra: yes, where were we on that?

Russ: cloning and Atlantis.

Karra: hmm.

Russ: that's a recent topic in the Sedona Journal of Emergence I was dealing with.

Karra: yes I’m trying to…..I've got so much that I could say about it.

Russ: well okay, I’ll go start anyway and how the article mentions the pain involved from the cloning of that time translates into the hesitation and the actual want to halt or not allow any cloning in this current age.

Karra: okay, now if you remember my side of the discussion is that there is only moral pain….

Russ: right.

Karra: and the fact that as we’ve discussed in the past, you cannot create my exact duplicate or your exact duplicate….

Russ: right.

Karra: because of what?

Russ: experiences, soul, everything.

Karra: correct.

Russ: but at the same time, moral predicaments like that are things that have caused civilizations to crumble.

Karra: no, I wouldn't say that it has caused civilizations to crumble......

Russ: what about the Roman civilization? Its morals degraded to a point where it could no longer maintain its defensive force and it was overrun by a stronger force from without.

Karra: no, actually it destroyed from within.

Russ: but yeah, morals did play a large part in that though.

Karra: correct but what I’m talking about is the morals within a society concerning cloning.

Russ: right.

Karra: the fact that duplicating an individual, if we take the movie 'Multiplicity', yes that is actually nearer to the truth. The denigration from the original to a simpleton is what would happen.

Russ: hmm.

Karra: to create the first clone in 'Multiplicity' was an exact duplicate of the original and it went downhill from there because you are taking......you are making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.

Russ: well see they did not do was reduplicate Dolly, the sheep that they cloned.

Karra: correct.

Russ: had they done that, they would’ve probably noticed the degradation factor that you bring up.

Karra: correct and that is something that people don’t take into consideration when they talk about duplicating or making a second clone, they don’t realize the degradation that goes on in the genetic material.

Russ: uh-hmm.

Karra: it is looked upon as humorous. 'Multiplicity' looked at it in a humorous way, it didn’t look at the failing of the genes.

Russ: well it’s tough to conceive of the genes failing.

Karra: but they do.

Russ: sure, we see that in cancer patients.

Karra: correct. Now something that seems to be very hard for people on your planet to understand that there is nothing wrong with cloning because you are creating in another way a life form. And I can hear people saying, ”yes, but what about the fact that you are playing God?” And I’ve got an answer for that, maybe God is playing through you, your God is playing through you to create another person…

Russ: hmm.

Karra: another being, another sheep. You not playing a God, a God is playing through you, giving you the intelligence to be able to do so. And there’s the theological discussions that go with that. Maybe it is not God? Maybe it is not a higher dimensional being with a positive outlook, maybe it is the negative higher being with a negative purpose? And you could sit and discuss that in a theological sense for eons. I think Omal was correct in saying a good name would be time, time management.......

Russ: uh-huh.

Karra: because again we’re looking at time. But it’s a moral discussion, is it right to create a new life? Well?

Russ: in the fact of biological creation? Yes. Scientific creation? Even I have troubles with that now.

Karra: why do you have troubles with it?

Russ: well just because there’s enough people on this world, I don’t see a need to be creating new ones when we can make them naturally without having to worry about it.

Karra: that is not a moral discussion…..

Russ: right.

Karra: it’s not a moral dilemma, that is a scientific outlook and a social and economic outlook.

Russ: well the scientific would be the fact that we can use the genetic cloning to take away diseases…

Karra: uh-huh.

Russ: and such but at the same time, if it degrades after each clone, that's not really an effective way to do that.

Karra: but you need just a single cell to do so. If you take enough genetic material, let us say I take a pint of your blood, I can make billions of you and not have to worry about the replicative fading.

Russ: hmm, which brings me back to the other point, that’s a billion too many.

Karra: yes but let us say I come down to your world right?

Russ: right.

Karra: I don’t have any children and we want a child.

Russ: okay.

Karra: and I can’t have children by the normal method. Now, let us say that they take one of my cells and one of your cells, we put them together and clone both of us so that I’m carrying twins. A copy of you and a copy of me.

Russ: hmm.

Karra: they are not exact duplicates of you or I because A, they will be physical copies of us but they won’t be exact duplicates because environmental factors are different, experiences will be different, food supply will be different so they cannot be exact, exact duplicates of us. They are physical and genetic duplicates but they're not exactly us.

Russ: hmm, well again we get into the moral issue on it.

Karra: yes but what I’m saying is the fact that I am in essence with your child. You understand? I’m not saying it’s right or wrong.

Russ: right.

Karra: I'm saying look at the alternative side of the coin.

Russ: yeah, I agree with that. In some cases it does have a very valid point.

Karra: yes.

Russ: in other cases, I can see where there would be wars started over it.

Karra: yes.

Russ: but again, that’s really the lesson that we have to get through consciously for each of us before we can advance from the point where we left it at in Atlantis.

Karra: yes. You see the problem with Atlantis and the cloning experiments there was not so much creating replicas of people, it was creating almost a new species, new individuals with lesser intelligence but greater physical strength. What you were doing or what was going on was slavery, building a slave army.

Russ: true.

Karra: all the abilities had been walled up and blocked so that these beings would work and do and not be able to fight back against the master, the controller of them.

Russ: hmm. Well, in one sense that’s no way could even be morally acceptable….

Karra: uh-huh.

Russ: because you’re taking away someone’s no matter what, freedom of choice.

Karra: but they never had that right, they never had that knowledge that they had freedom of choice.

Russ: but is it right to keep that from them?

Karra: ohhhhh....

Russ: well see what I mean?

Karra: I could play the advocate here but I’m not going to because we both know the people that were at fault.

Russ: right.

Karra: hmm and we also know that the individual that went on a crusade against it….

Russ: right.

Karra: and let’s not open up old wounds.

Russ: I agree.

Karra: we have to overcome that, we as in we three, four, five.

(she's talking about an Atlantean past life where Karra and myself were on opposite sides of the debate with Mark, Tia and Kiri)

Russ: I agree, I think we’ve pretty much figured that out to this point anyway.

Karra: uh-huh.

Russ: and we've spent a lot of time working on that.

Karra: yes we have. I see it now not as good or bad, I see it as necessity dictates.

Russ: true. Would it be done again? No.

Karra: let’s take a very good, mutual friend of ours…

Russ: okay.

Karra: and the fact that his current species started off as clones.

Russ: Taal?

Karra: uh-huh.

Russ: hmm.

Karra: they were cloned and genetically altered to be what they are.

Russ: right, but they gained freedom of speech and thought….

Karra: uh-huh.

Russ: as did we.

Karra: correct. You see if you look at Taal’s, the purpose of Taal’s race, is it good or bad?

Russ: good.

Karra: I see it as neither, neither good nor bad. The reason being is the fact that Taal's race was designed for one purpose....

Russ: right.

Karra: to fly ships and to kill, is that good?

Russ: defensively yes.

Karra: and?

Russ: offensively no.

Karra: so it is neither good or bad.

Russ: right.

Karra: it is what is necessary. Without those early clones of Taal’s race, we wouldn’t have such a good friend. We wouldn’t have such a good friend as Katrina either or The Baron or Phrisling or any of those guys. Or Marta, none of them would be here you see?

Russ: so you have to look farther down the road, you have to look from Atlantis to this point.....

Karra: correct.

Russ: and so on so yeah I guess it is necessity just as everything that’s happened to this point has been necessity.

Karra: correct.

Russ: how are we to say what was or was not to happen?

Karra: yes, we don’t know.

Russ: true.

Karra: okay…..

Russ: all right my love, thank you very much.

Karra: love you.