(Kiri shares with a new guest the moral ethics of coercion and this time uses the example of an alcoholic parent and the decision that would need to be taken to stop them drinking for the sake of the children or allow karma to play out.) 

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Kiri: anyway, coercion.......

Russ: coercion.

Kiri: now we’ve covered the moral ethics, Russ is probably sick and tired of me going over the moral ethics.

Russ: no actually, they're quite handy to always get refreshed.

Kiri: uh-huh. Okay, self-gratification is a no-no with coercion. For example, coercing some guy to come and join me for some fun, that’s a no-no. Coercing somebody to do something that is beneficial to myself, that’s a no-no. Coercing somebody to do something that is good for their health, it depends. It depends on whether or not it will subtract or add to their learning lesson. Okay, let’s say that they need to learn in their life that drinking is going to kill them. Let us say I could coerce somebody to stop drinking but, they’ve got to learn that drinking will kill them and they’ve got to stop on their own, if I stop them they learn nothing. However let’s say that they're the sole supporter of offspring. If I coerce them to stop drinking, I’m now affecting their children who will continue to be able to function as a family. One is good, one is bad. By taking away the learning lesson, that is bad but by protecting other people by keeping them from learning that lesson is good. So there’s a moral dilemma there, which you do? Do you let them carry on in their own little world and destroy themselves and have to come to the conclusion possibly when it’s too late that it's bad for them or do I intervene and coerce them to stop drinking? Which do I do, which would you do Russ?

Russ: I would basically convince them of the fact that the realities of the situation are that do they want a happy, long life or do they want to short kind of life? I mean they have to look at their responsibilities and they’ve got a put them on a scale.

Kiri: you haven’t answered the question. The question is not how you stop them from drinking, do you coerce them to stop drinking or do you not coerce them?

Russ: well that’s the moral dilemma there isn’t it?

Kiri: uh-huh.

Russ: I mean, for myself, I'd say yes, I’d stop the drinking, they've got kids.

Kiri: uh-huh.

Russ: they’ve got other people besides themselves to be responsible for, drinking isn't going to make that any better......

Kiri: uh-huh.

Russ: and if I coerce them, they think they did it all themselves.

Kiri: okay Marilyn….

Marilynn: uh-huh.

Kiri: what do you think?

Marilynn: kids are involved right?

Kiri: uh-huh.

Marilynn: well you’re destroying more than just one life if the kids are around an alcoholic parent.

Kiri: uh-huh.

Marilynn: so in deference to the indefensible which are basically children….

Kiri: uh-huh.

Marilynn: I believe that one should use coercion to coercion.

Kiri: there actually is no correct answer, there is no answer. It is one of the questions that is posed to us but it is actually using addiction to other things, not alcohol but I changed it to suit the third dimension.

Russ: right.

Kiri: it is one that you have to justify yourself that do you intervene? Now, the next level to that is maybe it’s the children’s purpose in life to learn how to deal with that situation which makes it harder. When you have one person alone, do you interfere in an alcoholic’s life to straighten them out on their path or is it something that they have to learn to deal with to learn all the problems relating to alcoholism?

Russ: well we’ve addressed this problem numerous times in numerous situations with different scenarios every time.

Kiri: uh-huh.

Russ: and I think the most common thread we finally reached was the fact that if you do nothing, then that's what you’re supposed to do, if you do something then that’s what you’re supposed to do.

Kiri: but it depends on each circumstance.

Russ: right.

Kiri: so the learning part is the important thing. The morals that come with coercion is, making a decision on when to interfere. You can definitely say self-gratification is a no-no. It gets more difficult the further you progress into it. For example, the alcoholic. We’ve covered that, we’ve covered both the single alcoholic and alcoholic responsible for other people. Let us say that the alcoholic now is somebody that you care about, somebody important in your life. Do you coerce that person to stop being an alcoholic?

Russ: I think you got to ask yourself the question, are you doing it for you or are you doing it for them?

Kiri: uh-huh.